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Insights, Marketing & Data: Secrets of Success from Industry Leaders
Insights, Marketing & Data: Secrets of Success from Industry Leaders
THOUGHTFUL RESEARCH - Erin Sowell, Founder. Applying environmental principles to market research; from ecosystem science into consumer insight; inspiring the next generation of industry leaders.
Have you ever thought about how environmental principles could translate into consumer insight? Not necessarily in the sense of more sustainable approach to the practice of market research, (although that is clearly very important) but evaluating how we can take learnings from the interaction of natural ecosystems and apply those to understandings of businesses and their interactions with consumers….nope, me neither!
Well, fortunately, the brilliant Erin Sowell of Thoughtful Research has done exactly that. Erin is the emerging leaders representative for the MRC and has developed her framework in association with the Terry College of Business at the University of Georgia and among other areas we cover:
- What is ecosystem science?
- How principles from the natural world interrelate with business
- The LEARN, ADAPT and ENGINEER frameworks
- Intersections and differences with traditional market research
- The Emerging Leaders program at the MRC
All episodes available at https://www.insightplatforms.com/podcasts/
Suggestions, thoughts etc to futureviewpod@gmail.com
I did this talk a couple years ago and it was all about how insights professionals are, the ecologists of the business world, and we're out there studying. We're not studying the plants, the animals. We're studying the people and the tools they're using, the brands that they're partnering with in their lives, and using those findings to make relationships stronger or to make systems more resilient and more productive.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Future U. Now, if you follow behavioral science at all, so the likes of Richard Thaler, daniel Kahneman or practitioners from the world of advertising like Rory Sutherland then you'll know that they often draw inspiration from the natural world, in turn drawing parallels to better understand human behavior and decision making. Well, this week's guest, erin Sal, has taken some similar principles, but with a unique twist. Having studied ecosystem science at college, she's taken some core principles from the natural world, in particular, how ecosystems interact, support or even damage each other, and applied those to a framework called Transform, which can help businesses navigate complex, changing landscapes by leaning on principles learned from nature. Erin has given a fantastic talk on TEDx and, as she says, if you think about it, good insights.
Speaker 2:Professionals are like the ecologists of the natural world. I think there's a lot to be learned from that. So I won't try and describe it all here I really won't do it justice, but I recommend that you give this episode a listen. I also recommend you give MX8 Labs a try, especially if you want to gather, survey data and run analysis across closed and open-ended responses Collectively. Yes, really, you can analyze them together and way more efficiently. To pick up on the theme of this week's episode. They're also creating a supportive ecosystem for the research world, but more of that at the end of the episode, if you're interested In the meantime, on to the interview. So, erin, first up, thanks so much for joining today. I'm really delighted to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Not at all Now'm really delighted to have you on the podcast. Thanks for having me Not at all Now. Remind me whereabouts in the world are you at the moment, Because it looks like bright and kind of semi-sunny out there and, as I was saying, it's pitch black here in the UK at the moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. It's around noon, so it's the middle of the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, go on, go, make me jealous, tell me what the temperature is.
Speaker 1:It's not that warm out. I think it's in the 60s today.
Speaker 2:Okay, For the UK we consider 60s pretty warm, but anyway. But now I also want to get into an icebreaker as well and just find out a little bit more about you. I mean, we're going to talk quite a lot about your background and this amazing sounding business that you've set up, but that's all on the web. So what isn't on the web? What's something that most people wouldn't know about?
Speaker 1:you. I have tried out a lot of sports, so this might come up on the web, but I have done a lot of skateboarding. Especially over COVID times I was out and about on my skateboard exploring. But then even beyond skateboarding, my family loves curling, so sometimes I'll go to the ice rink with my parents and do that, which is very fun rollerblading biking. In high school I did shot put and discus and I actually have the school record for discus at least I think I still have it, we'll see.
Speaker 2:But so I like to to dabble in sports and and get outside and see what's what I, I like it and I assume you never got confused between your curling technique and your discus technique, so you didn't take those curling stones and sort of throw them down down the ice?
Speaker 1:no, but it did mess up my softball throw shot put did a lot yeah, I can see that okay I was. I was first base, so it didn't matter so much okay, so talk me through curling, though.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's one of those sports which I kind of get, you know, semi-addicted to once every four years, and this really strange thing on the winter olympics where I get really interested. So how on earth did you guys get interested in curling in Atlanta, georgia?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's similar. We were watching the Winter Olympics one year and having a blast and my parents wanted to get into it and then they loved it so much that they very strongly encouraged me to go out with them and it's fun to learn. I'm not the best at it, but it's, it's fun to learn. I'm, you know, not not the best at it, but it's, you know, good social, social experience and and it's rewarding to see yourself get better at something and see, see, you, see you getting points. Going from missing the target to getting points is exciting yeah, definitely, you know, and good on for.
Speaker 2:Good on, then, for actually going and trying it out rather than just watching it on TV as well. Lots of credit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so on that subject, in the spirit of going for things, let's just dive straight in, and I'd like to find out what Thoughtful Research does. So can you give me a little bit of background about the business and why you founded it and what it does?
Speaker 1:Sure. So Thoughtful Research is an insights consultancy specializing in strategic activation of insights, and I started it in 2020. And I was out of school for a few years I went to the UGA Masters of Marketing Research program and then I went on and I worked at 8451, which is Kroger's research company, and I was on the primary research team doing survey research, qualitative research, primary research, to understand what was going on behind the Kroger Plus database. So why are sales going down in this area? Why are they going up in this area? How can we improve the shopping experience?
Speaker 1:And then I went on after that to work for Georgia Pacific in Innovation Insights. So that was the fuzzy front end of their B2B business. Where is the market going in food service? What products should we be developing for restroom? Answering those types of questions. So that again was a lot of quantitative concept testing, even qualitative interviews with experts, things like that. And then I went on to start Thoughtful Research in 2020 and, you know, started off with a focus on, you know, traditional insights and I did a lot of work for, you know, regional businesses even some businesses that aren't very familiar with insights just starting to get into it and I work with insights, companies providing qualitative services, quantitative services, and then now I'm going forward in this ecosystem science direction.
Speaker 2:Yes, so can you explain a little bit of that to me? Did you study ecosystem science at college? Is that part of the background?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yep. So for my undergrad I went to Lehigh University and I got a degree in earth and environmental science. So, studying natural ecosystems, I went and I studied abroad, in Panama, and I spent, you know, three months learning about tropical jungles and coral reefs and how all of these systems interact together and how you know how species are surviving and growing within them. So I did a big study about this ant called Azteca ant and a Cecropia tree and they have a mutualistic relationship where the ant provides its protection. If a sloth comes and tries to climb up on the tree and eat its leaves, the ants will come out and be like get away. So it's learning about that relationship and that has just totally informed, that background has just totally informed my approach to business and understanding markets and systems and how we can adapt and find our place of opportunity in the world I see now, so I've got it.
Speaker 2:Yes, so, because I was going to ask what ecosystem science is, but I think you've just given me a pretty good flavor. It's pretty much this. I'm sure this is not the academic definition, but it's pretty much how different elements of the ecosystem interact and intersect and support each other. Is that it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I define it as the study of the interactions and dynamics within networks and environments, and by applying it, we can see how individuals and organizations are competing, how they're collaborating and just navigating this complex system that's always changing. So when you're thinking about natural ecosystems, it's this natural world that's changing and there's, you know the climate, your resources are changing and how do species navigate that.
Speaker 1:But for business it's you know, you're a company or you're a leader, you're a brand in this world and you're under a certain set of conditions and you have relationships and based on those relationships, you get energy and you know, if you interact in a certain way, maybe you'll get more energy. So it's studying that and applying those insights to make businesses more successful.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we'll get into the business bit of it in a second, but I was doing just a little bit of background reading because I thought I should probably note something around what ecosystem science is before we did the interview. And, as I understand it, in many cases it's used, for instance, in agriculture or disaster risk management, mitigating effects of climate change, that type of thing. So is that right? I know you just gave the example about the ants, but are there other examples of how ecosystem science works that maybe you could give to listeners just within the natural world to begin with, and then we can connect it to the business world?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So natural ecology it's studying the natural world, and when people hear ecology, they think plants and animals, right, like that's the synonym that we just we use in our everyday language usually to mean plants and animals. But really it's this bigger science, the science of interaction and dynamics within natural environments. They use it to understand how animal populations are changing, how they're adapting to new conditions, and they even are applying their findings to try to make these natural systems more productive and resilient. And organizational ecologists and insight professionals do the same thing in the business world. So I did this talk a couple of years ago and it was all about how insights professionals are the ecologists of the business world and we're out there studying. We're not studying the plants, the animals, we're studying the people and the you know the tools they're using, the brands that they're partnering with in their lives and using those findings to make relationships stronger or to make systems more resilient and more productive.
Speaker 2:I really like this idea of researchers as the ecologists of the business world or the ecosystem scientists of the business world, because I hadn't thought about it like that. But I can see what you mean, in that you're working with a given brand and then they are taking certain actions, so it will have an impact with their consumers, but it'll also potentially have an impact back on the brand and there'll be a whole chain reaction as well. It means that consumers will do something else. Maybe the people who work in the business will also be impacted. So is that the type of way in which you're encouraging businesses to think in terms of taking these principles of eco-science and applying them to the commercial world?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I call it the ecosystem lens. View yourself as a part of an ecosystem. You're in this network. There are your consumers around you, your competitors, your partners, your resources. And what can you do to better understand your network, understand your partners, your resources and what can you do to better understand your network, understand your ecosystem, and then take those insights and adapt and engineer solutions that are going to set you up for success in the future?
Speaker 2:And so if we back up a little bit Erin as well, so you'd come out of college school, you'd done a couple of insight jobs and then what happened Was that like a little bit of an aha moment where you went hang on, everybody's doing the market research, consumer insights work this way, and actually I studied all this stuff at school and I think there's something there right To put these two things together. How did that work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I talk about it like my worlds collided, like I was studying these natural ecosystems and then I thought I was saying kind of goodbye to that space. I'm going to go off and do insights, work and, you know, get into the business world and then you know, through my classes at the UGA MMR program, through my experiences at 8451, at Georgia Pacific, my worlds collided. I realized that it was one and the same. We were doing the same things. Right, we're understanding the world around us and looking for ways to apply that so we can be more successful.
Speaker 1:We're all just trying to survive and grow at the end of the day, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I guess we are as people, or as consumer cohorts, or as businesses or other institutions. Okay, so now here's the million dollar question how does it work in practice? I get it in principle, but I know you have a framework, you've put together that which you've used to guide businesses through this process, and some of the eco-science principles and how it can apply to them. So could you talk me through it?
Speaker 1:Yep, yep later then. So could you talk me through it? Yep, yep. So over the past few years I've been working with Marcus Cunha. He is a marketing professor at the University of Georgia and he is the director of the Masters of Marketing Research Program and we've been working together to develop the Transform framework to take all of this you know all these ecological principles and make them practical. So it's a strategic decision-making tool that helps leaders learn from their environments, adapt to changing conditions and engineer solutions for long-term success. So in the learn phase, it's seeing your world through an ecosystem lens. You know it's talking to that leader, whoever that decision maker is, and showing them the different parts of their ecosystem. So you have your network, you have your connections. These are your competitors, your customers, the employees that you're working with.
Speaker 2:I could and Erin, sorry to butt in but if, for instance, say, if we just took not Kroger's, because you work with them, but say if we just took a similar type of brand like in the US I know Target or someone like that, I'll make it up. So how would that work then to learn? I know it's a hypothetical example, but how would that work with a business like Target in terms of this learn phase?
Speaker 1:What would? But how would that work with a business like target? In terms of this learn phase, what would you actually do? Yeah, so so the learn phase, it follows the letters of learn. So I would, I would say, with the, the client at target.
Speaker 1:I would say, you know, first we're going to look ahead, we're going to define the vision and you know where you want to go. So what does success mean for this problem or this area that you want to develop? So tell me what success is and then, once we have that defined, it's explore, let's go learn about these different parts of your ecosystem that are involved in this space that you want to go into. And then, you know, let's take what we've learned through that explore phase and analyze them and understand. What does that mean for the business, what does that mean for target, what are your specific opportunities, what are the specific challenges that you need to overcome?
Speaker 1:And, based off of that information, let's re reevaluate that vision that you know what our role could be in that space. Let's reevaluate how we can show up and how. What's the best, best function, best position positioning that we can take, how can we promote ourselves? You know, it could be a very small focus or a very broad focus, depending on on what your focus areas are, and then in for narrow. So let's take, take what you know, our real re-evaluation of our role, and narrow down like what can we actually impact, what can we change about our, our strategy, or what can we change about our product or whatever we're focused on to be better adapted to this space, or to engineer or to influence people in this space?
Speaker 2:I really like that, the way it plays off the letters of learn. So what was the A? So it was look ahead.
Speaker 1:Analyze.
Speaker 2:Look ahead, explore analyze. Oh, I can't read my handwriting.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll go from the top Look ahead, analyze. That was look ahead, explore, analyze. Oh, I can't read my handwriting. Okay, I'll say I'll go from the top Look ahead, or L is look ahead, e is explore, a is analyze, r is reevaluate, n is narrow.
Speaker 2:Okay, got it, we got that. And then how did you actually go about doing that? So is that a combination of stakeholder interviews and then consumer research?
Speaker 1:research, but basically it's about synthesizing information and taking all these different data points from your primary research or your database or wherever your insights come from, and developing that lens, showing you the different parts of your ecosystems and how they're influencing you and what your opportunities are, and the challenges too.
Speaker 2:Okay, got it. Thank you. Sorry I keep butting in, but it's really cool stuff and really interesting. I just wanted to understand it better properly. Okay, so then what's stage two? So adapt? Is this the similar schematic where the letters all count for something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but I'm only going to share the learn one for now. So the adapt stage it's all about, you know, how can I change myself, or how can I change my organization, my strategy, to better fit within this environment that I'm in. So I'll take I take everything that we've learned and I synthesize them down to you know, three strategic priorities. So I just did this applied the framework to this organization called the Red and Black. It's a newspaper, local newspaper. They cover the Athens Georgia area and train students in journalism. So we applied it through a workshop where we got you know, their readers in the room, their contributors in the room, board members, staff members, everyone in this room together talking about their ecosystem, going through that learn framework and then discussing what they need to do to adapt.
Speaker 1:And the core themes from that were tailored positioning, so customizing your messaging and in the you know the specific content that you're bringing to the audience. Seamless experiences, like how can they reduce friction in their interactions and, you know, help people get to their content faster or donate faster, contribute faster or easier or easier. And then community building, like how can they foster this connected community and be this, you know, like ecosystem engineer within the Athens community and you know this is a case study and they've agreed to let me talk about it. So it's very nice of them, but it's, you know, it's just this process in taking insights and activating on them and getting everyone in the room together to discuss it and, you know, be excited about this path forward. So that's what the adaptive engineer parts of the framework are all about. Is adaptive what can I do to change my organization or my strategy to be better fit into the space? And then engineer is what can I do to influence the space, to activate needs, to change people's perspectives, to want to interact with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I like it. And I guess one thing I'm not necessarily struggling with but I'd be interested to know, that is that to what extent do you think this is different from conventional market research techniques?
Speaker 1:It's meeting a different need Like we have these traditional methods that are great at uncovering answers and you know we have MaxDiff for sorting and for figuring out what the highest preference is. Or you know we have all these individual methodologies is having like a synthesis tool to bring all of these individual insights together to give us that overview of what's going on in our world and our landscape and then taking those and activating on them. So it's not replacing traditional research. It's more like a traditional research can plug into it to activate and to get people adapting and engineering.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really more of a consulting framework, isn't it, Within which you can apply various research methodologies or integrate different data sets within that framework and hence a thought process as to how you would move on with those findings. What's the initial reaction from clients been? I mean, do you find that you don't have to name particular clients, by the way, in relation to this question? But are there some parts that work really well or other parts that are more challenging? How have you found it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been, you know, getting good, great feedback. They, you know, think it's a great approach, forward-looking approach. It makes it easier to understand what's going on around you and kind of take all that information and create a story with it. And yeah, it's been great feedback. But you know, of course it's, you know, still early in its development and you know it's getting better every time we we go through it.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's uh, good stuff and how do you sell it in? I mean, do you find that you're getting referral by word of mouth, or people coming to you because they've seen some of your talks, or the university is recommending you? How do you manage to get the word out aside from podcasts like this, obviously?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, word of mouth. I'm preparing these case studies to spread the word, so stay tuned on that. I hope to bring the Transform Framework to SMR Congress maybe, or other conferences in the space. I really would like to apply the transform framework to insights, so that's where I'm going. I want to create a case study all around. How can we use this framework to be more effective in our roles?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see that working within the sector itself. I also thought it's potentially an interesting framework around report writing and presentations to think about it in that way because, let's face it, I mean a lot of research reports are so boring. I mean I'd like to you know, stab myself in the eye as soon as I start reading most of them. Sorry researchers out there. Um, some of them are really good, but I I could see trying to apply this type of schematic around how you're reporting. Potentially could make it a lot more relevant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think so too, like here's what we learned and this is why it matters to you and this is what you can do to adapt, and here's how you can influence others through ecosystem engineering, and I think that's a great setup for a report, so I'd love to see it go beyond me and go beyond thoughtful research in the future and be a resource for the industry.
Speaker 2:Could you explain also a little bit about the work you're doing with the MRC, because you're the chair of the Emerging Leaders Program, I believe. So what does that involve?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the MRC?
Speaker 1:For those who don't know, we're an organization of leaders in the insights industry and we're dedicated to promoting the use of research and business and policy decision making, and we advocate for best practices and encourage innovation.
Speaker 1:So I am the chair of the Emerging Leaders Program. It's a program dedicated to developing, supporting, elevating, up-and-coming leaders within the insights industry, and we provide emerging leaders access to market research council programming, cohort meetings, showcasing opportunities, advisors and mentors, hands-on leadership the list goes on and it's, you know, it's all about building a strong foundation for these up-and-coming leaders so they can, you know, do what they want to do effectively and give them resources and connections. It comes from Fiona Blades, who was a recent guest on the podcast right, so she had the vision for this a couple years ago and I came in as an emerging leader and we've been developing the program ever since and now it's becoming more formal and we've developed a brand around it and we're actually recruiting another round of emerging leaders. So we'll bring in probably around five emerging leaders for 2025 and get everyone involved, get them connected.
Speaker 2:And how does it work in terms of the structure? So do you do meetings in person a certain number of times a year? Are there places online that people can go? How can other people in the industry get involved?
Speaker 1:Sure. So, mrc, we have monthly events and you can come. You can join if it's an open event. So you know coming up, we're having a presentation about politics like what messages worked well in this year's election in the US. So we had Simon Chadwick come on and talk about, you know, private equity and insights and how the industry is changing, and bring in other experts to talk about different spaces. And then for Emerging Leaders, we just started a series in the MRIi blog highlighting who these people are and what they bring to the table and what their backgrounds were and where they came from. So I just wrote the first piece for that. So if you'd like to learn more about my background, you can read that, but we're going to have some more coming out too.
Speaker 2:Yes, it sounds good and it's a balance between agencies and brands. I imagine it's fairly wide ranging.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep. Try to find leaders from across the industry, different areas, different expertises. So it's nice to meet with people who have a different perspective and a different area that they are involved in.
Speaker 2:And so who's helped you develop this proposition? You've mentioned a few names already, but is there anyone you'd like to call out in particular and for any specific reasons, in terms of what have they contributed or what have they taught you?
Speaker 1:Marcus Cunha. He is the UGA professor that I work with on developing thoughtful research and the transform framework. He has been crucial in this. He's a partner in the business and we meet every couple weeks and talk about the work and look for ways to improve the framework. But he saw potential in these ideas and has been working with me to make them a reality, to make them practical and create this framework that we can all use. So big call out to Marcus.
Speaker 1:And then Rose Tatarski. She is a behavioral scientist, she focuses on animals and she works with thoughtful research in the communications space. So she is on that biology, ecology side of things, helping me take that natural science, the biology, and translate it to business. Also, sherry Jane Love. I work with her. She's a business coach. She has been great in helping me focus my efforts and prioritize my time and figure out how to get there. And then Simon Chadwick, too, from the insights industry perspective. He's an expert in the industry great perspective and has also been helpful in figuring out how to communicate all of this to everyone. So big thank you to those four.
Speaker 2:Yep, fantastic. And now, in terms of a slow wrap-up, they don't really have to be quick for our answers if you don't want them to be, but there were just a few general questions I wanted to jump onto, if that's okay, sure. So if you could be the CEO of any organization not Thoughtful Research, because you've already got that one which organization would it be?
Speaker 1:I was thinking about this one, and I think my answer is I don't know if I want to be a CEO of any other organizations, but I want to work with them. So I want to work with CEOs that are innovative, that are trying new methodologies, that want to develop new solutions, especially in the insights industry.
Speaker 2:So I think that's my answer. I'm looking for CEOs to work with to develop these ideas and to create even more solutions, so I love to work with you in terms of applying your framework. I like your thinking. It doesn't have to be any kind of one business, but what are some of the businesses you'd most like to work with?
Speaker 1:Business, with a global business with a far reach, who has access to a lot of data sources and is interested in modeling, using ecosystem science to model markets. That's what I really want to do. I want to take the you know they call it computational ecology. I want to take go into the math you know the big data math side of things and apply the science to big data.
Speaker 2:So that's interesting and so you take that. Then you'd go, rather than as an extension of the approach you currently have, which sounds like it's a bit more consultative when you're taking multiple data sources, but then what you'd actually be taking certain recommendations and then you'd be modeling out their potential impact on the organizations and their intersection with other organizations. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so the modeling could be used in that way, or it could just be used to model current markets and make better predictions. So a lot of the predictions we're making are based off of regression. So using data from the past to predict the future and I think ecology or ecological science has big potential to take present data sources and use those to predict the future, to apply the science that's used for understanding natural ecosystems and how they change over time, and apply that to markets and business ecosystems to understand how they're going to change.
Speaker 2:Okay. So another question for you if you could have two people to dinner, who would they be?
Speaker 1:I think I'm going to go with Richard Thaler and Charles Darwin. I think that those are two. You know Charles Darwin from the natural side of things and then Richard Thaler from the behavioral economic world. I think we'd have an interesting conversation about how you know how things are the way they are. I think that would be interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be absolutely fascinating. Do you think they'd get on? I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I've heard interviews with Richard Thaler and he seems to be a pretty cool guy, so I obviously have not heard any interviews with Darwin.
Speaker 2:So what would your aspirations for thoughtful research be in, say, five years' time, 10 years' time, something like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's integrating these principles of ecosystem science into business marketing. So that's through the transform framework and maybe developing other solutions in this area. But I'd really just want that to take off, for that to be integrated and for people to know about these principles and why it matters to them. And so that's you. That's communicating that through the framework, but then through other materials. So I've been working on a book, but books are hard to write, so maybe that will be out by then and then, long-term, it's going back to that ecological modeling, applying it through data science. I would like to do that.
Speaker 2:Fantastic and just final question. I would like to do that. Fantastic and just final question. So, aside from the book that you're writing, that I look forward to reading, hopefully within five years, what are your favorite books or pieces of media? You know it doesn't have to be books. Is there anything you'd recommend in particular?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been reading this book from Sam Tatum. He's the head of behavioral science at Ogilvy. It's called Evolutionary Ideas and it's in the same vein. It's understanding of these natural elements and why they matter to us. But he takes it from more of a behavioral science standpoint and psychology standpoint. I think that's a great book, and then Influence by Robert Cialdini point and and psychology standpoint. I think that's a great book, and then, you know, influenced by robert cialdini and then beyond that, I really like listening to podcasts, so like armchair expert. They have experts on from different fields every week and they have a conversation with them. So it's kind of similar to this podcast where it's you. You know there's a human element, you're learning about their lives and how their work fits into that, but then also the science and the insights from their work Hidden Brain, radiolab other podcasts in that space.
Speaker 2:Aaron, thank you. I think they're great recommendations. Thank you for even referencing this podcast, this humble podcast, in reference to some of those bigger and better known ones. It's been a real, real pleasure having you on. I love what you're doing and keep doing it.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:I have to say I really enjoyed talking to Erin. It's fantastic to spend time, be able to discuss industry issues with someone who's thinking about the industry in a slightly different way and who, yes, frankly, is a little bit younger and hence has a different perspective, albeit grounded in a solid methodological foundation. I think some of Erin's perspective also perpetuates a theme that other guests have talked about, in the sense of the importance of looking at research outside a silo and how different data points from outside a particular study contribute to a more holistic answer. I won't jump onto that soapbox, though. Instead I'm going to slip onto the suds of another one. Sorry, terrible pun.
Speaker 2:Only briefly, and that's around our sponsor this episode, mx8labscom. In fact, I'm actually not going to get on the soapbox. Just go onto YouTube and search mx8labs demo and you'll see how easy it's becoming to launch surveys, check them and analyze data with the help of the latest AI. Enough banging on for now. Thank you to Erin for the interview and what she's doing, to mx8labs for their sponsorship, to Insight Platforms for their support and, of course, to you for listening.
Speaker 1:See you next time.
