I'm delighted to be able to share the FutureView interview with Joaquim Bretcha, Director General of ESOMAR.
Ass the leader of the global trade organization for the insights industry, Joaquim brings a unique and deeply tenured viewpoint from major organisations on the client side such as Carrefour, to building out Netquest and several roles with ESOMAR.
Among other topics, we address the hurdles traditional survey methods face in the realm of customer experience and user experience; key factors for success in the industry; and we explore the sometimes contentious relationship between research agencies and consultants.
Joaquim also explains ESOMAR's goals and the importance of the organisation's history, as well as the practical steps around lobbying organisations such as the EU to protect and grow the industry.
And - of course - we have the occasional digression into things your probably didn't know about Joaquim....
All episodes available at https://www.insightplatforms.com/podcasts/
Follow FutureView on Twitter at https://twitter.com/FutureView7
I'm delighted to be able to share the FutureView interview with Joaquim Bretcha, Director General of ESOMAR.
Ass the leader of the global trade organization for the insights industry, Joaquim brings a unique and deeply tenured viewpoint from major organisations on the client side such as Carrefour, to building out Netquest and several roles with ESOMAR.
Among other topics, we address the hurdles traditional survey methods face in the realm of customer experience and user experience; key factors for success in the industry; and we explore the sometimes contentious relationship between research agencies and consultants.
Joaquim also explains ESOMAR's goals and the importance of the organisation's history, as well as the practical steps around lobbying organisations such as the EU to protect and grow the industry.
And - of course - we have the occasional digression into things your probably didn't know about Joaquim....
All episodes available at https://www.insightplatforms.com/podcasts/
Follow FutureView on Twitter at https://twitter.com/FutureView7
The next question that we had many, many companies started to invest on technology, plus that the scientists, that the scientists not coming from research, coming from a pure data scientist world. So people used to work with data And what we have found in many, many occasions is that people with no idea of the objective of the study, or, let's say, you have no idea of the category, they start to work with data, but the outcome they get has no meaning, means nothing, because it doesn't explain reality, because they don't have the context of reality and they need to have this context.
Henry Piney:Now, this is the last episode of season two. We'll be back end of August, early September, season three. We're going out, i think, on a great high note, interviewing the wonderfully sage and erudite Joachim Bretcha, director General to ESOMAR. Now, for those who don't know, most of you probably do, but to reiterate for those who don't ESOMARR is the leading global trade organization for the insights industry. Represents over 750 organizations, 40,000 professionals, major organizations, interesting up and coming companies. As a result, Joachim has amazing perspective. It was a pleasure to talk to him around the challenges and future of the industry. He raises really fundamental questions around the nature of insights. For instance, are you really focused on understanding data or people and how those two things might emerge, as well as the factors that likely remain the same in the sector and those that are evolving very, very fast. As usual, please bear with me when the conversation veers off the planned schedule into random areas, but you may just find out a few things you probably don't know about Joachim.
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Joaquim Bretcha:Yeah, this is my pleasure as well to be on the other side of the microphone.
Henry Piney:Well, i'm sure you're going to teach me a lot and you're going to be a lot slicker than I am in terms of being an interviewer. We'll see. Now, just to get going, i also wanted to get a little bit of background on you. I know there are all sorts of interesting things that you do outside the research industry, but could you let me know one or two things that most people wouldn't know about you, they wouldn't be able to find just from an easy search on the internet.
Joaquim Bretcha:Okay, well, i must say that I'm a father of three, so it's already a job in itself being a father of three, but the thing that I am most excited about lately is that I have become a master of ceremonies and a speaker in sports tournaments. So I literally started one year ago with a sport tournament Phil Hockey Sports Tournament in my club. I was an European championship and there was no budget to hire a speaker. So they asked me and I had to do it in different languages, so in Catalan, in English, a bit of French. So I did it and they like it so much that now I'm the speaker of the club.
Joaquim Bretcha:I'm also being asked by the Catalan Federation to be the master of ceremonies in international matches, and lately I have been asked to also be a master of ceremonies, a presenter of different non-related to sports events. So that's very, very new to me and I'm enjoying it very much. For instance, this Saturday I will be the speaker and I'm presenting a very important match at our club. We are the end of the league, so this match is crucial. My son under 16th category that is playing, so it will be my pleasure to be the entertainer of this match. So that's my latest exciting thing.
Henry Piney:Well, fantastic, you have a great voice threatened and it's impressive, you can speak so many languages as well.
Joaquim Bretcha:Thank you, yeah, yeah, well, being where I am, i'm from Barcelona, so I'm Catalan, so I speak. my natural language is Catalan, so it's a good bridge to Latin languages as well. So how?
Henry Piney:does it work, then, with your son? You're the emcee, you're the master of ceremonies. you're not commentating? No, not commentating.
Joaquim Bretcha:Actually so funny because for these tournaments, i mean I like history, i like history a lot. So what I did I mean I had no idea how to approach a tournament, international tournament, with teams from England, scotland, ireland, germany, netherlands, belgium. I had no idea, i knew nobody. I mean I don't come from this sport, i come from other sports, but my children have played this sport so I have got into it and I'm quite passionate about it, by the way. So I started to read about this sports history and I was talking about it in the different matches and so on, and now people believe that I am a super expert in this sport and I have never touched a stick. I mean of course I have, with my kids playing here in the ground, but I have never played. And now it seems that I'm an expert. So it's very funny.
Henry Piney:That is funny, but you're probably one of the few fans that's actually read up about the history, which I'm sure is really I'm sure It could be a podcast in itself actually the history of hockey.
Joaquim Bretcha:Yes, yes, i mean, in April we had a Spanish tournament that my club as well, people go from all over Spain And the presidents of the regional federations came to me saying, oh, you did a fantastic job, i mean, and you were explaining things that the people don't know. And so, yeah, i did them there to tell them that I have never played. But, yeah, people don't know, the people don't know. So, yeah, people don't know history. And that's very sad, because I think it's crucial to understand where we come from, because then you understand why things are the way they are today And, at least for me, that's a very important part for everything, not only for my society or this case of sport, also for organizations. So you know that now, recently joined SOMR in a management role And I had this discussion about we must not lose history, we must not lose the legacy, because then we are lost. We need it.
Henry Piney:Yeah, very much agreed. I was a history major, as they would say in the US, so I agree. And I also like old school sports Again, a different conversation but I play quite a lot of what they call real tennis, like the original form of tennis. Oh, the old school, the middle age tennis, yeah, the minute which is still played in almost 50 courts around the world.
Joaquim Bretcha:But again, different conversation. Let me just okay, okay, different conversation. But I will tell you that you always refer to Canterbury's Vitrail. So in your churches talking about hockey in the middle ages, but in Barcelona, in the cathedral, we have these wooden statutes with people playing hockey and tennis from the 14th century. So if you come to Barcelona, i will take you there.
Henry Piney:Exactly, it's that game, and the shape of the court is the cloisters of a monastery, and then there's a buttress which is the side of the church. We could talk about this one offline, otherwise we'll never get onto the market. Yeah, yeah, let's go. Yeah, i do it. So, talking about the market research sector, so you've had a stellar career within the market research world and you've worked a lot of big companies. You know the client side, car for agency side, cinevay and TNS. You know SMR, which we'll get back to in a moment, and, of course, almost 15 years of netquest, working closely in collaboration with GFK. So you're coming. How did this all happen? How did you get into this crazy world of consumer insight? Right?
Joaquim Bretcha:So my background is and I am an economist by background I started to work in the most prominent Spanish association of fast-moving consumer goods that unites manufacturers and retailers. And here was when and then I was buying insights, i was buying some different surveys and studies, and then I was hired by this retailer, carrefour, And then, when there was a merger and I had to be moved, it was when Kantar at the time TNS offered me the option of becoming the retailer specialist for TNS Spain, and that was my first step into the insights world. And then I went. So here I spent like five, six years. It was amazing. I learned a lot. I really enjoyed those days.
Joaquim Bretcha:Then a retailer called me back to get into the retail again And then I went. I mean, it was not my job, if you want, i didn't really like that one. So I just moved back to insights, or to data collection in that case, online data collection as Nequest, first, being a Sinovac for some time. And then I went to Nequest because I wanted to understand the digital world. I wanted to understand the internet of the time I'm talking about 2009 at the moment So I wanted to understand how insights was getting digital And, as you said, i didn't expect to be there almost 15 years. That's been my past 14 years, i think.
Henry Piney:So on that front and just jumping onto Nequest, because obviously I know the name but I have to confess I don't know that much about the company. But I was doing a little bit of background research And it seems really interesting around both the founding story and then approaches around fusion of data, So, for instance, survey and behavioral data, which I know is something that a lot of companies have looked at. So how did that happen at Nequest And how were you approaching those types of issues?
Joaquim Bretcha:So Nequest was born as a platform, a survey platform in Spain. There was a moment in the digital insights space in which every country was having its own survey platform, but the crisis came in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2011. And that was the real jump for Nequest in Spain. And then we decided to go to La TAM And in La TAM also, there was this expansion And Nequest was fundamental in the digitization of the region in the insights industry. And that's when, in 2014, there was this Dutch company called Wacupa that approached us And we saw all the capacity that behavioral data could bring to our portfolio. So we had very well-engaged panels, very well-engaged people responding to our surveys. So we were asking them to install this plugin, this piece of software to trace their activity on their laptops, desktops and mobile tablets, and that way we could really collect their digital behavior.
Joaquim Bretcha:So, like digital ethnography, and, from all this data, understand the patterns of consumption, understand the consumer journey, understand anything that you wanted to understand. And then what was the most relevant thing was to combine Okay, we can see what you do, as in ethnography, we can see what you do, but now we want to understand why. And it was this combination of data. I mean, you know, i left in a quest in February, so I am not now any longer related to them, but that was the essence of this motto of Symphony of Data. So let's play with different pieces of data to have this holistic view of consumers.
Henry Piney:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I was wondering if you have any tips maybe for me, actually in the companies that I work with, as to how to take metered data, which is what I think of it as, and then as a general survey-based data Now how to get it right, putting it together, because when I've taken metered data in the past, maybe I just wasn't doing it right, but we seem to get so much metered data back We didn't really know how to make sense of it, and I'm wondering if maybe we were making some mistakes in terms of we almost didn't have a clear enough thesis or idea going in in terms of what we were looking for and how we would organize the data.
Joaquim Bretcha:You are touching the most precise point. That explains why it hasn't been so spread this methodology until now, because the ocean of data is immense so you can get very easily lost into that. So the approach that the Nequest had at the moment was on two fronts, when it was working on a more ad hoc basis. The crucial thing is to perfectly know what question you want to answer, because otherwise, if you start from data to try to see what is there, you get lost so easily because there are so many branches that you can pursue it and finally you get to nothing. But you have to have a very clear question in mind, say okay, i want to respond to this question. How can I work the data to find the answer? That was the approach on the ad hoc side. The other way to approach this data is from standardized products.
Joaquim Bretcha:In the case of Nequest, nequest took the avenue of looking into the e-commerce, so they defined certain variables that could explain the path to purchase or could just be used as benchmark among e-commerce retailers. So this is a way that you can create consistent parameters that you can be tracing over time, and it's a way of tracking the performance of retailers and the performance of consumers with these retailers. So this approach can also be combined. Once you have the solid base of okay, we have these variables properly tracked, over time we can then approach it from a more ad hoc side, which is okay. We know what they do in terms of behavior. Now let's try to understand what is the path around this behavior. So what is their social media consumption, how well they react to campaigns from retailers, and so on. So it's the dual approach The more ad hoc one, in which you have to have a clear question, and the other one which is working on standardized products.
Henry Piney:I see, and so, if I play that back a little bit, would it be the type of thing in the e-commerce world whereby you're tracking certain events amongst the panel? So would be that they search, they visit a website, they put something in the cart, Like those types of factors on the consumer journey. Would it be those types of elements? and then you have the ability to go back and ask them what happened?
Joaquim Bretcha:Yes, yes, that's the case And here, very interestingly, you know, these are rays with the technology of the big players. So now you know that you have Google, you have Apple, amazon, all these players, And I can tell you it's a race because they are progressing their software And for trackers, it's a real race to really catch up to what they do. So, in order to collect the data, the technology investment is very important, very, very important.
Henry Piney:I imagine there must also be a challenge as well for traditional survey approaches in relation to CX or UX type approaches, because obviously we all, when we shop online, i think we all get faced with a lot of small-scale CX type surveys, asking us why we did something, how the experience was.
Joaquim Bretcha:Yeah, yeah, you mean the instant survey as compared to the. Yeah, that's true. I mean you know that companies want to have the instant moment, the moment of truth. So that's a trend. That's a trend that I think is unstoppable. But of course, you are right, you need to have more in-depth understanding. So you also need to I mean, companies need to get these deeper surveys, or indeed focus groups, and to you that you know, today the digital focus group is a super reality. So once you have the identified, the shopper, it's quite relevant to have a conversation with them. So you can do many things once you have identified people and you know that they are engaged and willing to participate in whatever you are asking them.
Henry Piney:Yeah, very much so. I mean I think there can be some feelings of this kind of fail fast and fail often type mentality. It's very prevalent in the software world and there's software you can do it. But if you're making big product decisions, i think you want to be sure about what you're doing and you need to ask people questions to get beneath the surface.
Joaquim Bretcha:We could spend one whole episode talking about that The difference between fast, cheap and immediate feedback as compared to really thoughtful, high quality and proof or evidence proof to make strong decisions and really relevant decisions. I mean, the industry has this trend of dividing, or companies dividing, their jobs between this Okay let's, you say fail, some others say break fast. But the industry needs this constant feedback and then they need to stop and think and really get into much more depth in the understanding of people's motivations and likes and dislikes. So we are getting into this combination of two speeds, if you want the high speed and the low speed.
Henry Piney:Yeah I think that's a nice way to put it of high speed and low speed. I think one of the challenges as well for the industry that various people have been talking about is that the high speed well, sorry, the low speed, but high value element of it potentially needs to be paid for in a different way and needs to have a different economic model around it, because it's much more consultative. But then research companies are not really used to charging like consultants.
Joaquim Bretcha:That's an internal discussion And indeed, the poor changer in the end user might be different as well. So you might be touching two different budgets in the end user. But you're right, i mean this discussion about researchers not being able to charge as consultants And, on the other hand, consultants getting into the research space as well in a very important way. So, yeah, this is a tension that we have had for some long time already and that will keep being there. Also, we have to think that there is a big population of well experienced and senior people coming from research agencies that, for many reasons, they can be creating their own boutiques or they might be joining their own boutiques, and this is very powerful because you bring people with knowledge of mythology plus a very good understanding of the category, of the business, of the client or the business models. So this boutique approach, i think, can compete with these big consultants that you mentioned.
Henry Piney:Yes, agreed. I think what you want to avoid, though, is getting stuck in the middle, and that's the issue that I think a lot of companies have been wrestling with, if you know. Are they fast, relatively cheap, more platform based, or are they going to try to go towards a premium consulting type model, and I suspect you've got to choose one or the other. It's very difficult to do both.
Joaquim Bretcha:It seems that the world in all of its aspects, from political to religion, to media, to everything the world has a trend to go to streams And the ones caught in the middle are the ones that might struggle.
Joaquim Bretcha:But it's true. I mean, you just mentioned the insourcing. So, as of my latest study on the poor chase, or insights purchase by end users, last year already it was indicating that more than 50% of projects that end clients purchase are already internalized. So this is huge and the trend is going higher. So it means that all these do-it-yourself platforms, all these data collection companies that are directly connected to end clients or to platforms, they are taking the space that previously was a space for research agencies or traditional data collection. So, yeah, there is a very strong trend in insourcing from the end client. But, as always, i assume that is the pendulum, not pendulum going on one side and suddenly it will go back to the other side and there will be a new point of equilibrium, not a new balance point in between from what we had and what we are seeing now.
Henry Piney:Yes, I'm sure that's right. That pendulum always seems to swing back and forth in different areas. What are the consistent characteristics that you see amongst those who achieve senior positions or success in this sector? Part of the idea of this podcast is to give advice for young people. What are the characteristics that they should embody if they want to be successful in this space?
Joaquim Bretcha:As I told you, i got into this space by accident, if you want. So I've always considered that building a very solid base, a very solid base of the trait of insights is, in my opinion, is very, very important. I would tell a young professional do not rush into the promotional wheel. I would tell this young person create solid roots, a solid base of the trait that you are in, in this case the insights, because from a solid base you can grow in a natural evolution, because you will gain respect from your colleagues. You will gain this authority that you really know what you are talking about. In a world in which people learn from YouTube or people learn from TikTok, or people learn from very short pieces of videos or whatever, i believe that it will become very, very important to have this solid base in which you really know what a correlation is, in which you really know how to ask questions and how to link data, what they taste significant and what they taste not significant.
Joaquim Bretcha:I had many conversations of. You know that in the last years, with this technology evolution that we had many, many companies started to invest on technology, plus the scientists the scientists not coming from research, coming from a pure data scientist world. So people used to work with data. What we have found in many, many occasions is that people with no idea of the objective of the study or, let's say, you have no idea of the category, they start to work with data, but the outcome they get has no meaning, means nothing, because it doesn't explain reality, because they don't have the context of reality, and they need to have this context.
Joaquim Bretcha:So this is why my piece of advice would be first, build the solid grounds on the profession you want to work in the coming years. I mean maybe not always, not for the whole life, because you know, with this changing world, we might be reinventing from time to time, but in this profession, build solid roots. The second thing would be be curious. Be curious, i mean curiosity is, i would say, is the raw material of our profession. Curiosity brings us to really have open eyes, open minds and always try to learn new things. Empathy Empathy not only towards respondents, consumers or people you interview, but also colleagues, also people you work with very, very important to establish these empathy relationships. And then I would also include doses of ambition ambition, i would say, in the good sense of ambition, and a balanced attitude towards risk, i mean risk taking well managed can take people very far. Badly managed, of course, can take people to disasters. But also conservative, ultra conservative attitudes can bring to disasters. So I would also advise in learning to assess properly the risk and how to take risks.
Henry Piney:I think that's fantastic advice and the point that you were making at the beginning. Around an era in which people are getting lots of information from YouTube and from TikTok, this idea again, like this tech industry idea of strong opinions weakly held, is not something that I actually think works very well like at all. I'd much prefer to have well-considered opinions that are strongly held, yes, but, joakim, what would you say is new, though? What are some of the classic things that you say in your experience haven't really kind of changed and that people should be considering, but what are the new challenges that you've seen in recent years?
Joaquim Bretcha:So one month ago, less than one month ago, i was in Mexico for the ASMR Latin Conference and in the opening I reflected on the following So the first Latin Conference by ASMR in Latin was in 1991 in Rio de Janeiro 1991. So it's already been a number of years And my reflection was on the following If we could take one of those attendees in Rio de Janeiro 1991 to our event in Mexico 2023, this person reading the program or just visiting the exhibition hall, would understand nothing of what we do today. I mean this person would understand what is this all about? That you are connecting, you can run a survey in 100 countries and get responses in less than 24 hours. I mean, how can you do that? I mean this person would think that he's got into the magic world because we can do things that 30 years ago nobody could even dream of. Not even dream of People answering surveys on their mobile in any place in their city or in the world, or just processing data at the speed that we can do now, or auto generating presentations or chat, gpt, extracting insights from data. I mean this is totally an affordable for a person's imagination in 1991. So that person could not understand how we do things. It would be impossible, but this person could perfectly understand why we do things, why we do things And we do things because we want to understand people's behavior, we want to understand people's preferences, we want to understand people, and this why for me, or the what that we do, for me is the most important thing, because if we have a clear understanding of what we do and why we do things, the rest will be adapted.
Joaquim Bretcha:We'll be adapting, as I mean, you know, technology is the big disruptor of the last decade, or even more So. It's the big disruptor. So, yes, technology is disrupting everything. As long as we keep a very clear understanding of what we do and why we do things, i think we are on the good path. So, yeah, i could be talking about many things. I could be talking about the mobile data collection, this data collection of behavioral, digital behavioral that we were talking about before. I can talk about chat, gpt here, the future interest, about many things, but to me, the most important and relevant thing is that we never lose the what and the why we do things.
Henry Piney:Yeah, i love that. It's because there's always going to be a new technological thing or course coming up, isn't there? Getting onto SMR, you have a long association with the organization, from being a council member and then you were president And now you are the director general, as you were telling me just before we started to record. So what is your role in Compass And how is that different from having been the president in the past?
Joaquim Bretcha:Well, it's very different. I mean being president first of all. You are elected by members. The president is the reference in terms of representation and also the addressing to strategy with council and being the face of the institution. Director General is the one responsible to make things happen. So we have a team in Amsterdam, mainly with some people in other places, such as in the US, for instance. This team is the one really working on things to happen, things that are defined on the strategy level, the council and with president.
Joaquim Bretcha:Well, i was asked to take the lead on this team And this is what I did two months ago, two months and a half ago. So now, as I told you, i'm in the trenches, learning who is doing what, what are the things that are being done, how to coordinate them and putting order in the structure of the association, of the team. And yeah, it's been a fantastic job, very, very intense, i must tell you, also working with council on different aspects. So it's different. Now I am an employee. By the way, before I was a president, i was elected. Nobody from council gets paid for this role And it can be quite tight, consuming, i must say. On the contrary, now I'm a professional of the association. So I'm a part of the team. So that's a huge difference.
Joaquim Bretcha:So how many people are employed by SMO? So we must take into consideration that there are different levels of employment. I mean, people are part-time not always full-time, but full-time or full-time or part-time around 30, something, 33, 34. And then we have other people collaborating with the team very, very narrowly. We have committee chairs, of course. We have different committees And we have some people, or some former employees that are also in a consultant role for different aspects. The team is a nice team. It's a very nice team composed of about 30 people plus around 6-10 people in these different coordination roles that are not at all full-time employees. They're collaborating in a portion of their time.
Henry Piney:Yes, so it's certainly a significant organization and obviously very well known and influential in the space. What would you say the immediate goals are of the organization? Are there any particular pressing issues that you're focusing on? Sumato to address.
Joaquim Bretcha:So, together with Cancel, we must work in different fronts. One front is to review the governance of the association, the other one is strategy, very important. And then of course we must be the international reference of the insights industry. Actually, the other day I started to read the book that was published for the 50th anniversary. So Esomaris created it in 1947. And in 1997, it was the 15th anniversary and they published a book. It was the 75th anniversary.
Joaquim Bretcha:Last year We didn't publish a book, so I was just thinking, okay, maybe we should enrich this book of the 15th anniversary. So I had a glance at the book and I could read the objective that the first group of founders established in 1948. And the objectives are quite similar. I mean, they were talking about to represent and develop contacts between people actively engaging market research, to further their professional interests, to encourage high professional and technical standards, to arrange political meetings in particular, and then a conference. It was very nice to read how they were crafting this association at the beginning because you can see, indeed it was a bit candid from today's eyes And I really liked that. And I can tell that those objectives keep being the same.
Joaquim Bretcha:Perhaps we can enlarge this with the international aspect, because at that moment Esomar was created in Europe as a response to the world war. I mean as a response to have all this division among countries. So there was a response that we need to work together. We need professionals of the same industry. We need to work together to don't let happen this disaster again. So now, today, we are worldwide, international. We are in more than 100 countries Thanks to our capacity of creating standards and guidelines for the profession.
Joaquim Bretcha:Today we have the capacity to lobby before the legislature, and I'm very, very particularly in front of the European Union because it's the highest.
Joaquim Bretcha:They are the ones creating more legislation And we have been quite successful in protecting the insights profession from legislations that could affect our practices and could limit our practices. So we loving with some other associations and institutions, we can be very effective in loving and protecting the whole industry. And you know that something that is related in the European Union is most likely can be copied in many other places. So European Union did that sense is fundamental. And also, if I want to add something to the initial objectives, i would add all the business orientation. I mean we want to create a huge network that not only fosters the profession not only defends the profession but also fosters businesses, and we want to connect companies and connect people and that people can really build and grow their businesses in our platforms platforms that could be digital, such as the directory or events exhibition at events, sponsoring webinars and so on. So these are the main goals of the association. I would say.
Henry Piney:Yeah, i think that's very well put and very clear. I really like the tangible goals of the beginning as well, as you say, from the original remit, because you can very much see how they could be allocated and measured. I was also interested in the lobbying with the EU. What would be? are there some examples of the types of issues where you've been able to successfully lobby the EU and protect the industry?
Joaquim Bretcha:Yeah, for instance. Now I will. Yeah, for instance, we protected the digital audience measurement. I mean, there were some laws that would make it very difficult for companies to digitally collect data from consumers. That would be an example, for instance. Another example is what is called this.
Joaquim Bretcha:How is it called this? a geek economy, knowing which? this law that wants to oblige the deliverers of the world and the Uber's of the world to consider their employees, the people that work for them, as employees instead of independent contractors as they are now. So this legislation wants to include these people as employees, so it will have an enormous impact in the profit and loss results of those companies. So this could affect, for instance, our companies, because respondents also get rewards and respondents get incentives, and these incentives and rewards could be interpreted as remuneration And if they are interpreted this way, suddenly all respondents could become employees of the companies And this would have a huge effect on our industry. So we have to be very vigilant on what sort of legislation is being crafted in the governments and in the legislature arena, because, as you see, they are trying to legislate on one side, but it can have effects on our industry, so we need to be vigilant on that, i mean.
Henry Piney:God, that would be a nightmare in all sorts of ways if respondents were considered employees, not just from a cost perspective, but in terms of administration and everything. Yes, It would be. So you can. I've never been involved in lobbying, just briefly because I'm conscious of time. But then how does it work? I mean so, as SMR, you have to keep an eye on the legislation for instance, in this case, the EU, but then maybe other national or super national governing bodies that are applying legislation And then if you spot something that you think may be problematic for the industry, then you put together a team that goes to make the case towards the relevant body.
Joaquim Bretcha:Is that how it works? Thank you for the question. It's very. It allows me to explain a bit some things. So we have a team, We have what we call the gaps team, which is the team responsible for creation of professional standards and all the legal affairs.
Joaquim Bretcha:So we, for instance, we're subscribed to different legal magazines around the globe, not only Europe but around the world. So we pay quite a lot of money for those subscriptions So our team can get all these inputs. We have this team, we have the head of the team resides in Brussels where he can network and build association with some other institutions, associations. We have what we call legal affairs committee, chair by Kim Smouter, the previous responsible for this gaps team that I was mentioning to you, And it's conformed by professionals from the industry. So we provide them with topics and they work on these topics And we need to create alliances with those institutions that we understand can help in attaining the objective.
Joaquim Bretcha:And every year we come in to be composed by companies such as Ipsos, such as Nielsen, JFK, Kantar, different companies, Dineta, Toluna, So they go to Brussels once per year and we craft a very intense agenda, meeting high officers and representatives of the European Commission on different stances. So that depends on what we are working in. So the activity of loving is not only on these visits that we try to meet as many people of reference in the European Commission as possible, but also during the over the year the team is crafting relationship and networking with different associations, also the European Union. So it's just a spiderweb. You need to work consistently for many years to elevate your access to higher ranking officers the most you can.
Henry Piney:Yes, thank you that. That really helps clarify it. I can see how that process works. It must be very challenging.
Joaquim Bretcha:You really have your work cut out.
Henry Piney:Joachim, yes, it is. So I am conscious of time and you've been very generous with your time, so, if it's OK, i just wanted to jump onto a quick fire round before we wrap up. First one is around mentors, people who influenced you in your career. So who have you learned the most from, and what did they teach you?
Joaquim Bretcha:My first boss. He taught me the importance of listening Nequest founder, the importance of technology today and persistence, And I would say my wife with importance of family.
Henry Piney:Good thing you got your wife in there, otherwise you could have gone into big trouble. But yeah, three very good areas. And what have you changed your mind about recently? I know we've touched on this of things that remain consistent, but has there been anything, for instance over the last 12 months or so, that you thought, wow, that's really different? I've changed my mind.
Joaquim Bretcha:I would say the importance of time perspective and letting time do its job in this super accelerated world. I mean, I think we are so accelerated that we do not give time to do its job And you see that time at the end puts things in order somehow.
Henry Piney:Why have you changed your mind about that recently?
Joaquim Bretcha:Because for many things also social aspects and the things I see, but also my personal life, i mean I was working at Nequest and there was a situation I wanted to do some things and finally the situation arrived And then there was this opportunity of helping SMR in the current situation And I said wow. I mean it seems like time has put pieces in order, because it was a serial number of coincidences that led me to the current situation.
Henry Piney:I see How. about your favorite book or recent book, and what would you recommend?
Joaquim Bretcha:So I told you that I love history, but I will mention a book related to history somehow. It's a book from a keynote speaker in our Congress in Edinburgh, 2019. My first Congress as president for me was extremely important. So it is the book Let It Go my extraordinary story by Dame Steve Shirley. So this lady was the first woman owning a technology company And the way she describes her life. I mean she was the daughter of a German, half Jewish German family that had to be sent to UK to save their life. So they got sent by train so that she arrived in the UK, i think when she was five or nine, i don't remember And her story is extraordinary And it made me reflect so much. And also she talks about her personal life, her work life and also the problem with her son, who was sorry he had this I don't remember now the name So he was very serious and he learned a lot about the illness that his son had And it really, really struck me. It was an important one.
Henry Piney:Final couple of questions. if you could have dinner with one person not your wife, because obviously she would come first, not your broader family But who would that person be and why?
Joaquim Bretcha:Let me use two people. So one is Nelson Mandela. I think it's impressive what he did. I mean, he was prosecuted by people. He was very persistent, consistent And in the end he turned everything on the opposite side. I mean, he could really, he would really transform himself in something unique, in somebody unique not Nelson Mandela. And the other one is Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, so the creator of Chagypiti. I would love to have a conversation with him about his real motivations and his real scenarios of artificial intelligence impacting society and humanity. I would find this conversation quite fascinating.
Henry Piney:It would be a fascinating three-way conversation. I actually think of having Sam with Nelson Mandela. Oh, there would be spectacular Yeah yes. And seeing how generative AI might be used for goods to address issues like apartheid. But again, this could be a whole podcast in itself. Yeah, the final question but this is a big one And maybe you've just touched on it But what do you think the biggest trend or macro trend in the insights and data industry is that everybody should be considering for the next five years or so?
Joaquim Bretcha:I think I really provide an answer you don't expect, hopefully, i would say, and I wrote it down, so let me read it. So properly identify what roles the person makes a true difference. So in what roles person people we make a true difference. We are an industry of people understanding people Every day. Technology is bringing more efficiency And the leap we are getting into with artificial intelligence is a true game changer.
Joaquim Bretcha:We cannot get blinded by technology, we cannot get blinded by all this artificial intelligence flood that we are getting right now, and we must work in recognizing the value we people bring to the profession and our businesses. So it's a bit what I told you before We must be very, very conscious about what we do and why we do things, and then use the technology to adapt what we must do into the current times and the coming times. But my final message would be we are an industry of people that want to understand people, so we have to keep people at the center in both sides in the understanding side, so we must understand people, but also on people managing this understanding. So I think we must be very, very conscious about the importance of people in the whole circle. Thank you, joachim.
Henry Piney:I think that is beautifully posted. It's very prescient and to the point as to what potentially differentiates and really makes a difference in the industry. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you And I hope we can do it again sometime soon.
Joaquim Bretcha:Me too. Maybe next time it's me interviewing you for my podcast when I have time to recover it. But yeah, I would love it.
Henry Piney:Well, you're much more interesting than me, but I'd be delighted to do it if you could get the podcast back up and running.
Joaquim Bretcha:I suspect it's not true.
Henry Piney:Well, i struggle to think of anyone I'd prefer to have running a major trade organization. As you can tell, joachim is not only a lovely man, but he also brings a really tangible sense of wisdom to his work. I think it's a great point at which to wrap up season two of the podcast. I'm going to do some more interviews over the summer get a touch if you're interested and then the plan is to have season three up and running for September. So thank you for listening, thank you to Insight Platforms for their ongoing support And thank you to Human Made Machine for sponsoring this episode.